Well, at least they blame the weather when they do well too.  That crowd doesn't look fun at all.
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I've been to parks on 'cheer day' and 'christian youth day' before (not SFOT, it was Paramounts Great America) and they were easily the busiest I have ever seen a non-Disney park. With any luck, this may bode well for Six Flags new regime.
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New regime, old regime, it doesn't make any difference--the week of spring break typically brings big crowds to SFOT, and so does Easter week. Put the two together and you have record-breaking crowds regardless of who is in charge. The big question is how many of these people will come back after experiencing the new policies I mentioned in another thread?
*** This post was edited by Jeffrey Seifert 3/24/2008 1:54:48 PM ***
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I dunno. Each year people aren't supposed to come back for some reason or another - prices, policies, flashpass, service - whatever the complaint du jour is. Yet for some reason they do keep coming back. To the point of reaching capacity even.
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Except that overall attendance had been declining, even though the DFW Metroplex is one of the fastest growing areas in the country. You may have record breaking crowds for a particular week, but obviously some people are not coming back. You may dismiss the observations of enthusiasts as the "complaint du jour", but personally I think there are several real problems that need to be addressed. SF, Inc. is going to find itself in too deep of hole to dig themselves out of.
*** This post was edited by Jeffrey Seifert 3/24/2008 2:00:06 PM ***
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Company-wide attendance has gone up both years since Red Zone took control.
You may dismiss the observations of enthusiasts as the "complaint du jour", but personally I think there are several real problems that need to be addressed. SF, Inc. is going to find itself in too deep of hole to dig themselves out of.
You and lots of other enthusiasts. But here's the thing...how long before this hole happens? This year? Next year? Five years? A decade? Before I'm dead? I mean we can all keep crying wolf each year until something happens and then say, "I told you so." So far the new guys have done nothing but raise attendance and revenue. Whether it's enough to save the company or not is debatable, but it's undeniable that they're moving the company in the right direction as far as the numbers are concerned. If you ask me, SF finally has some real leadership with a plan. This is in stark contrast to the sinking ship that was the company in the first half of the decade. My guess based on the performance of the company the past two seasons is that the enthusiast community are the ones out of touch with the reality of the situation.
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Here we go again... Yeah, there is no question that Six Flags has problems that need to be addressed. That's the biggest no-brainer in the amusement industry. Also, there will always be the "Six Flags Sucks" flag-waving enthusiasts that will never be happy, so whatever with them. Gonch has a point, the numbers are up, and that's what the company is looking for. As an enthusiast, I really do want them to secceed. Why? Because they operate parks with roller coasters - duh? I know that there are be plenty of other enthusiasts that can't wait for them to fail and go under, and I can't seem to wrap my head around that.
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I certainly hope that SFOT isn't that crowded when I go there in two weeks!
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Well, they certainly weren't complaining about the pricetag.  Speaking of which, why would they cut prices during a period that is usually busy? Wouldn't they want to keep that offer for slow periods??? *** This post was edited by janfrederick 3/24/2008 3:03:12 PM ***
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I don't think anyone wants them to fail, we just want them to get a clue. Yes attendance chain-wide increased slightly from a very poor 2006, but if even if you remove the sold parks, they are not drawing the numbers they did in the past, or the numbers the should be drawing. You may think that the new leadership has a good plan, and yes I agree they have done some good things. But there are several other things they have done that make me wonder if they really have a clue. Just because you do a podcast and monitor this board does not give you the right to dismiss my observations as the "complaint du jour."
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^I don't know Jan, according to Gonch almighty, Six Flags is doing everything right and if you post observations to the contrary you are just a whiny enthusiast.
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Yes attendance chain-wide increased slightly from a very poor 2006...
And 2006 was up from and ever poorer 2005. The old guys ran the company into the ground. The new guys are bringing it back. The two seasons the new guys have been in charge, attendance has risen. We've established that.
Just because you do a podcast and monitor this board does not give you the right to dismiss my observations as the "complaint du jour."
Oh, please. The fact that I formulate my own opinion and post to this board gives me the right to disagree - here and anywhere else I choose. Just because I do the podcast and moderate on this forum doesn't give you the right to single out my posts and insinuate they're some attempt to bully through false feelings of superiority. Like I'm not allowed to disagree with anyone because of those things. All I'm saying is the enthusiast community in general keeps coming up with new reasons that SF is bound to fail - yet the numbers continue to move in favor of the company. Regardless of whether the company was (or is) 'saveable' - these guys are making exactly the moves I'd hope those in charge would make...and they're getting postive results. Will making people put loose items in a pay-to-use locker on certain rides kill the entire company? That remains to be seen, but I feel pretty confident on my side of the fence.
I don't know Jan, according to Gonch almighty, Six Flags is doing everything right and if you post observations to the contrary you are just a whiny enthusiast.
Sigh. The irony.
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Well enthusiasts are known for their whines about one thing or another. I don't follow your argument. You concede that in two years the numbers are going in the right direction, but they're not as good as they were. Did anyone expect Six Flags to return to the numbers of ten years ago? Snyder's posse wasn't really expected to undo years of bad karma and stupid decisions in two years, were they? I think your expectations aren't realistic.
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Just because I do the podcast and moderate on this forum doesn't give you the right to single out my posts and insinuate they're some attempt to bully through false feelings of superiority. Like I'm not allowed to disagree with anyone because of those things.
Post of the year. Spoken like a true micro-celebrity.
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Seriously though, Gonch, how do you feel about them slashing prices during a normally busy period? Don't tell me you would do that if you were in charge. Even our local taco joints get that...$2 Tuesdays?
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Six Flags raises prices - people complain that prices are too high
Six Flags lowers prices - people complain that they are devaluing themselves.Dammed if they do, damned if they don't. Numbers don't lie, we'll see how the rest of '08 goes, eh?
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Don't tell me you would do that if you were in charge.
No, I wouldn't be inclined to drop prices. Then again I don't get paid 7 figures to run an amusement park chain and this can't exactly be hurting things. I'd still rather see less people paying more.
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I think there is a fine balancing act between supply and demand of course. But when you close the gates, you lose money. Also, when a guest goes on a crowded day like that, how likely are they to return any time soon with the memory of the butz-to-nutz day they had. Then again, some people must enjoy crowds. Otherwise, you wouldn't have crowds like that picture.
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I don't know where you are getting your facts but according to the Six Flags Inc. report to stockholders, attendance dropped significantly in 2006. I haven't conceded at all that numbers are going in the right direction--because they have not. At my home park they have been going steadily down.
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You are certainly allowed to disagree, that's what makes this board interesting. I don't think you have the right, nor do I like it when you dismiss opinions that disagree with yours as just ramblings of enthusiasts and complaints du jour. It pretty much borders on personal attacks and name calling which I thought were not allowed on this board.
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I don't know where you are getting your facts but according to the Six Flags Inc. report to stockholders, attendance dropped significantly in 2006.
Because of the parks the company sold that year, they reported a final number that did not include the sold parks even though they owned and operated then throught the entire year. It wasn't on a same-park basis. Look a litle closer. On a same-park basis they were within 100,000 guests. I do stand corrected in that the numbers did not go up from 2005 to 2006, on a same-park basis they dropped about 1/2 of a percent between those years. As I mentioned the loss was around 100,000 people. For the record, that's the gain they made from 2006 to 2007 - so after two seasons the attendance is roughly even. But considering they gained that loss back in one season with less parks and even fewer operating days is a positive sign.
I don't think you have the right, nor do I like it when you dismiss opinions that disagree with yours as just ramblings of enthusiasts and complaints du jour.
Sorry you feel that way. It's not directed right at you. It's commentary on the countless complaints and claims that various people have made at times over the past couple of years since Red Zone took control of SF. It always seems like there's a new "complaint of the day" - something that someone doesn't like so they think that obviously everyone won't like it and in turn it will hurt the company in some significant way. All the things I mentioned have been the complaint du jour at one time or another - prices, service, virtual queue, paying for lockers, the no re-entry rumors, Shapiro's ridiculous bonus, reduced hours, poor operations, increased character presence, thrillleaders, in-park advertising - you name it and someone has claimed it'd be the beginning of the end for Six Flags. So far it just isn't true. I spout my opinion as much as anyone and I'm probably as wrong as anyone just as much. But the numbers don't lie. The company has increased revenue and maintained attendance since Snyder got his claws on things and put Shapiro in charge. The sky hasn't fallen. The biggest threat to the company at this point isn't the hole the current leaders dug - it's the hole the previous company leaders dug that these guys jumped into. The bottom line is that all of these little things that one person or another or a whole bunch don't like isn't affecting the company...if the year-end reports are the judge, these actually seem to be helping. It's not a personal attack. It's an attack on the latest 'sky is falling' claim to pass through these forums. Who knows? Maybe you'll be the one to be right?
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No, I wouldn't be inclined to drop prices. Then again I don't get paid 7 figures to run an amusement park chain and this can't exactly be hurting things.
The marketing departmet lives and dies by the turnstyle numbers. So promotions (the early season discounts or coupons), group sales (the Christain group events) folks do whatever they can to get admission numbers up. So with a park that's had luke warm attendance over the last 10 years or so there will be a ton of programs in place to boost those numbers. If the spring numbers came up soft they can say well we had x, y, and z promotions in place so we're doing what we can. If the ticket prices were jacked up to and the numbers came in soft and they only had x promotion in place then director of marketing has a lot of explaining to do. Getting huge numbers like this early in the season is marketing greatness so they'll do whatever it takes.
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A company that is run properly and has a good product doesnt have to give away the gate with cheap prices to inflate attendance.
Does anyone think the other parks open this week over Easter break, like the Disney/Universal/Busch parks had to reduce admission prices to get people to come to the park??And doesnt it seem odd that the decision to close the park is done by the boss looking at crowds and wait times he is told about, rather than by attendance turnstiles telling them how many people are in the park and how many people can you handle in a safe manner??
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Disney/Universal/Busch aren't recovering from several years of piss poor management and serious brand damage.
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Exactly. You can't look at Six Flags' situation in a vacuum. Cedar Fair did that with Geauga Lake, and look where it got them. There's a lot of history and years of mistakes to deal undo.
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Gonch said:
I dunno. Each year people aren't supposed to come back for some reason or another - prices, policies, flashpass, service - whatever the complaint du jour is.
I think what I've found to be the case is that some people (a considerable portion) will come back for the rides, shows, attractions regardless of how they feel about their previous experiences. They may not be "addicted" like some of us here (we know who we are, LOL), but they'll make their yearly trek to their local megapark as long as Johnny and Susie are willing to be around their parents for a stretch of 6-8 hours. Here's where it gets less...scientific-y. IMO, etc. Many others won't return, either for a few years or forever, due to ONE "complaint" - that of really poor customer service. To overcome that, SF needs to keep drawing in NEW people. Well, the country is growing, and is mobile, so markets turn over pretty frequently - and you get a shot at "new" people all the time. So, just maybe, alienating customers takes longer to show adverse effects than it might have 20-60-100 years ago?
I'd still rather see less people paying more.
That is a mixed bag that always runs us down the road of social justice. Mostly, we all know where we stand on THAT end of the argument. And, even thought it kinda pains me to admit it, that model IS the only way to really *fix* the problems that SF has created for itself. No matter how many lower-middle-class people you get in through the gates, their spending habits are apparently sufficient to only pay off the INTEREST from the overwhelming debt SF shoulders...
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So what good does it do to reduce prices so much, that the park is so busy no one can have a good time, or enjoy many attractions, or when you get to the park you are told to leave???
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So what good does it do to reduce prices so much, that the park is so busy no one can have a good time, or enjoy many attractions, or when you get to the park you are told to leave???
I dunno, but it hasn't seemed to hurt Disney's Orlando business - especially during the holidays. Seriously though, I think Cropsey nailed it. This year is about showing some attendance growth - even if it is a meaningless stat because of reduced admission prices and other things. I think at the end of the 2008 they want the books to show some serious attendance movement.
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Yah, but I think a crowded Disneyland (OK...NOT Orlando, but same class) is 10 times more fun than a crowded Six Flags park. So much eye candy! Anyway, if the prices caused the jump ion attendance, and they are more concerned about attendance than anything else, do you think we'll see parents paying kids prices all year?
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So what good does it do to reduce prices so much, that the park is so busy no one can have a good time, or enjoy many attractions, or when you get to the park you are told to leave???
This clearly illustrates the fact that Six Flags can never win with some people. "Hey look attendance are down they still suck!" "Look there's too many people at the park to have any fun, they still suck!" "I saw a cup in front of Shockwave on Sunday, Shapiro is a LIAR!!" Starting with the season pass online blue light special, this looks to be a pull out all the stops for attendance growth season. If you're trying to ride Shockwave ten times in a row with no line up then it sucks. But for a newish management team trying desperately to prove themselves after two years unwhelming business growth, it makes perfect sense.
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ugh...can't Six Flags just have a good day and allow them to celebrate it? Be happy, forget the politics.
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^^ If you're trying to ride Shockwave ten times in a row, you'd better put on a helmet. It's in the middle of retracking and is missing a turn.
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The other way to look at this is in terms of revenue generated by that in-park advertising. If more people are seeing the advertising, then the companies that advertise in-park will see an increase in their revenue. If the companies see an increase in revenue generated by advertising, they are more likely to continue to advertise in-park, generating more revenue for SF. It's a mutual symbiosis that cannot be ignored. ---Rob
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I doubt the increased advertising makes back the money lost on discounted gate.
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Closing the gate due to excessive crowds partially attributed to discounted gate promotion is not considered money lost.
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The money lost at the gate will be made up. All those people need to eat, their kids will want toys, teens will play games, etc. Tickets are normally $47 and the promotional tickets are $30. $17 is less than the price of a meal for two. I'm pretty sure they made back that money lost at the gate, or very close to it. And hopefully they'll see this attendance continue, after all this is a good start to a season. I mean. how many times have a regional U.S. park had to close its gates this early in the season due to attendance?
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