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To realy make the ride 'new', CF should have invested in Vekoma's new trains featuring lap bars. Rumor is that they are testing a car on the Great NorEaster next week.
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I completely agree, but even as it is, this is a great addition for MIA. The GP will love it and it will make the line shorter for Timbers. 
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What possible return on investment would new trains have? Zero. I'm curious to see what kind of impact this will have on the park's attendance. It seems like a whole lot of ride for a park that size.
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Awesome, another bird name.
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MiA's attendance should double if not triple in 2008...then it will drop until they get the hyper they were promised in 1997  Where the hell is Coasterkid200? Did he get grounded? -CO
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....and there was much rejoicing....
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While it still sucks that GL is gone (I refuse to acknowledge WWK as GL) this is a good addition to MiA. It'll give the park a one-two punch with Shivering Timbers and Thunderhawk together. Yeah, it's an SLC, but to Michigander's it's the only roller coaster in the state where your feet dangle. To me it looks like the main draw is the waterpark since I've seen how much it has grown in the last 5 years. But hey, it's good to add some new thrill rides here and there. ~Rob Willi
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The new trains virtually make it a new ride experience.
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***Jeff said: "What possible return on investment would new trains have? Zero."*** Using that logic, what was the point of Premier retrofitting the Mr. Freezes and Flight of Fears to remove the OTSR's, or putting PTC trains on the Legend? It makes the ride better... That being said, I don't remember the SLC at Geauga being too "headbangy" (unlike some of the others), so the OTSR's weren't that bad...
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Well one of the predictions/rumors turned out to be correct so I guess it'll be only a matter of time before KD announces as well. Since the ride is a novelty in Michigan it'll definitely draw crowds to the park even if the ride is a tad on the rough side going through certain elements....my advice to first timers is to ride in the front row,right side for the smoothest possible ride experience.
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How can they advertise this as "New?" If anything, maybe they could call it refurbished, but I don't see it as new. It is a great ride, and I look forward to maybe riding it at its new home, but the ride is not new. They aren't changing the name and it looks like they aren't even re-painting it (which they don't need to do). At least they could do that if they are going to call it new! Also, is relocating a steel coaster really more expensive than buying a brand new wooden coaster? -Sam
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New ride experience to who? Michiganders? New trains aren't going to bring in a single extra dollar at the park.
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To 99.99% of the people who attend Michigan's Adventure who've never heard of Geauga Lake, let alone been there, this is a new ride. .I am surprised they didn't change the name. I guess they're getting the sign from the GL midway too *** This post was edited by ShiveringTim 10/2/2007 10:47:05 AM ***
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I was kinda hoping for a name change. Just to distance themselves from Geauga Lake. This will be a good fit for MiAdv, but I'm curious where it is going. I don't remember there being a lot of space between RipCord and Adventure Falls. I actually expected it to go over between Grand Rapids and the train station.
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Interesting rumor, AJ. What the hell would be the problem with changing the trains? So it wouldn't make the park more money. So what? I applaud companies that make improvements to their products that result in better operation or a better experience- that shows they're thinking about the customer as well as the bottom line.
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Another thing. I saw the reguklar Vekoma inverted cars on the Bat, I think. Removing the Arrow suspended cars, and replacing them with open air coaches, on a ride like the Big Bad Wolf would make that ride quite the scare factor.
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The Bat? Do you mean Chessington's Vampire? I hear that ride is much improved since the Arrow rolling stock was removed. It makes sense that a suspended coaster would be much better if riders were out in the open rather than seated deep in plastic tubs with bulky OTSR's.
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The Arrow trains were the only negative to the ride experience. Some of Arrow's suspended are quite good, and the opportunity is there to make an exisiting ride better.
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I've been on quite a few Arrow suspended coasters and enjoyed them all, especially Big Bad Wolf. I can only begin to imagine how great that ride would be with better trains, particularly that last drop over the river.
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New trains that make a ride more comfortable make it a better ride experience, in turn increasing guest satisfaction, contributing indirectly to the bottom dollar as any improvement to guest satisfaction would. If 'smoothness' weren't a value-adding component of a coaster, I'm sure we'd see a lot more SLCs and a lot less B&M inverteds in parks. I'd also wonder if a smoother ride would result in lower insurance premiums.
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I was expecting a name change also. I also expected it to go on the east side of Grand Rapids but between and to the rear of RC and AF will work. People will go to ST and take the train over to TH or vice versa. TH will probably help attendance to Timbersfest next year as well.
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I'm quite surprised, other than to save a few extra bucks, that they're sticking with the same color scheme. It's the same as the Corkscrew. I guess they'll be far enough away from eachother that it won't matter. Also, if you compare color schemes with their wood coasters, they all have the same colors as well! Some continuity with variety is a good thing.
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Well it's just the same as when Firehawk was added to KI this season....except for enthusiasts who knew where the ride came from the GP saw it as a totally new attraction so it makes sense to advertise it as new. When's the last time SFI relocated a coaster & actually announced that it came from one of their other parks?
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What the hell would be the problem with changing the trains? So it wouldn't make the park more money. So what?
Do you really need an answer or is this a rhetorical question?
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AJ said: <em>"Rumor is that they are testing a car on the Great NorEaster next week. "</em> That's the RUMOR, huh? Might have to make the Morey's event next year.... Honestly, this is one of the better ride relocations that have been done over the last few years. Reliable, relatively inexpensive, feet-dangly ride that will meet *several* of the parks needs at once. SF(GE) might want to take note...
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Allow me to rephrase. Does everything that gets done need to have an instantaneous positive impact on the bottom line, or can things be done that cost a little bit of money and trade a short-term loss for a potential long-term gain stemming from increased customer satisfaction? Furthermore, from a marketing standpoint, the ride could debut as the only suspended, outside-looping lap bars-only roller coaster west of the Mississippi (provided the Morey's rumor turns out to be true). But realistically, I think a much-improved ride would debut with more fanfare and long-lasting positive results. Perhaps the general public doesn't know that it will be an "SLC smoother than most" but they likely know the difference between a comfortable ride and an uncomfortable ride.
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^ Please note Rob that this is just a small attempt at humor.
Does everything that gets done need to have an instantaneous positive impact on the bottom line
Obviously you haven't been here long as the answer is most definitely yes. Someone else (I'm too lazy to look) mentioned the Flight of Fear and Mr. Freeze retrofits. I'd be curious to see what impacts those had besides those rides now getting mostly positive reviews rather than negative. Ray P
*** This post was edited by ProgRay 10/2/2007 1:35:05 PM ***
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If you relocate it, they will come. CK200 or whatever his name is today, got his wish. Kind of. I was on T2 this summer and that's enough for me. Thunderhawk isn't going to get me to go to MIA next year. Althouhg it will be a good addition to the park. From my experience there last time, and the reactions I overheard about their Corkscrew ("I'm not going on that. It goes upsidedown"). It's going to scare some people. That would be fun to see. And forget KD! send the Beamer to VF. It is wishful thinking, I know.
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MiA is finally getting something it needs, and best of all, CF already owns the ride, they just have to relocate it. It works out well for a small park like MiA. I do have a question, with its location, did the park build a path connecting the two sides of the lake/pond/body of water over by Wolverine Wildcat? If not, that's one heck of a walk.
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Painting a building or renovating a restroom are good choices for improvements that have no instant ROI. Spending a half-million on new trains for a ride that virtually no one in Michigan has been on in the first place is not a good use of capital. More power to them if they were ever to decide to do so (assuming it would make a difference in the first place), but it would be a colossal waste of money.
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I wouldn't say new trains would be a total waste. The current trains are more than a decade old and have likely experienced a lot of wear and tear. It stands to reason that new trains would require less maintenance, which I believe would help a small park like Michigan's Adventure. I won't pretend that the trains would pay for themselves but some of the cost of new equipment could be offset by having a minimal impact on the maintenance budget.
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Maybe MiA will get the new lapbar-only configuration after the ride's run for a couple seasons and ridership has begun to decline from a poor ride experience, i.e., headbanging. Then they could get some marketing value out of "the new and improved" Thunderhawk.... ^^^Honestly, with the situation at MiA and the one at PGA, I think my limited *infrastructure enhancement budget* might end up going to NorCal first...
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So you want the GP to fingure out how much they hurt first before new trains are installed? If people don't like the ride, they will tell others, and that'll hurt the bottom line. People won't break down the doors to get to see the ride if they hear bad things.
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Where the hell is Coasterkid200? Did he get grounded?
Right Here, and I only have one thing to say. ITS ABOUT TIME
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For all the ignorant people who haven't ridden Thunderhawk at GL—and I mean that in a 'You're assuming the worst because it's an SLC' kind of way—it's actually very comfortable and rerideable. The three of us who rode it back in June came off of it dumbfounded, because all the normal parts where you cringe didn't happen. So I'm going to agree with Jeff that they don't need new trains, because Cedar Fair already made it comfortable.
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I completely disagree that adding the new trains on Thunderhawk would be a "waste of money". The coaster would be more popular without the headbanging that is so prevalent on those SLCs. The park would have a better coaster, and its ridership would stay higher longer. I talk to people when they get off those SLCs. Many complain bitterly of headbanging and such. I think it would be a good investment and would make a far better ride. Of course, the people at Cedar Fair will agree with Jeff. On that I have no doubt.
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Just saw a teaser for the 5pm news(wxyz) channel 7 in detroit. They will be showing the coaster.
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I wonder what it will look like?
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Do you have a link Crazy Horse.
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Does anybody else think that Headspin should have been announced for next year instead? And then followed by Thunderhawk a year or two down the road? That way the company could've been making better use of excess assetts. I'm making that suggestion considering no other Cedar Fair park would really benefit from the introduction of a Vekoma Boomerang -- and after Thunderhawk, it'll be like taking a step back if they put in Headspin (if they put it in).
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^I agree. I wouldn't count it as a step back, necessarily. But it seems like MiA is the best place for Head Spin to go, whenever they decide to move it. For everyone who thinks new trains would be a good idea, remember that this will be a 10-year-old ride by the time it’s installed. It’s not the Legend, which had only run for two seasons when it was decided to ditch the Gerstlauers for PTCs. Similarly, the Premier rides were all between three and five years old when their OTSRs were switched out. Those changes were investments in young rides. Thunderhawk is not that young, and it might not run another 12 years. (Of course, Wildcat at Hersheypark would be an exception to this example.) Also keep in mind the fact that the first major coaster MiA is getting since Shivering Timbers is a used one. Cedar Fair is not dumping money into this park. Considering that they just closed a park and recently bought a park chain, buying more comfortable trains isn’t the highest priority, especially if the old ones still work. And no one can say that getting more comfortable trains would directly lead to more park revenue at the end of the year. Nobody’s removing SLCs from their parks for lack of popularity. In fact, Six Flags is removing popular rides (The Chiller and Déjà Vu) that just don’t run reliably. Sometimes you have to look at things from the perspective of the non-enthusiast. It’s a “new” ride to MiA, even if we know it’s relocated. An SLC might be an acceptably “rough” coaster ride to people who have never ridden a B&M or Intamin. The bottom line is ROI. Thunderhawk is going to be popular enough with the trains it has now, just like every other SLC in the world.
*** This post was edited by Olsor 10/2/2007 5:48:42 PM ***
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^Didn't WoF get their Boomerang after Mamba. Please no one say CP. A boomerang isn't going in there, that wouldn't make sense capacity wise at all. As for MiA, think I said in my other post, I don't think they have the money for a major coaster such as this. But the fact that their just moving this one from another park is costing a lot less. At least that's my thought. That was always my viewpoint on Shivering Timbers. You have this small amusement/water park and there's this huge roller coaster that is usually found in a larger park.
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And to think SFA was *thisclose* to getting this ride. Poor SFA BATWING FAN...screwed again! BWA HA HA HA HA HA!
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I'm not sure I understand why people keep bringing up the age of the ride or the trains. There are Arrow loopers all over the place that have been running for nearly or more than 30 years.
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With more and more state regulations leaning towards a 'equal national level', the window to move rides is closing. CF has to move the GL rides this season, and assemble them soon. You will not see them mothballed for any length of time. As for the SLC, they are a great ride, but agressive. When the ride moves, so does the legal issues, inspection reports, and mandatory manufacturer upgrades, reguardless of the state it operates in. Eventually, all SLC's could have this option, or rather the order to change the trains, so my thoughts are to make the upgrade, and give MiA a better ride than it left as.
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If I was closer I'd say the new trains would make me definitely want to go to MiAdv just to check them out, otherwise, I've ridden a standard SLC, so I'll get there whenever and ride it if at all. I agree it's a great addition, but new trains would make it a must ride for some just to see how it is, and could give that marketability of "the only lap bar inverting suspended coaster" blah blah. Ah well, bottom dollar rules even over customer satisfaction.btw, why does MiAdv's site just plain suck compared to the other CF sites? I know this has been said countless times, but the overall look seems so dated anymore. The UNofficial site ( http://www.mirollercoast.com/ ) looks 10X's better then it.
*** This post was edited by P18 10/2/2007 6:26:58 PM ***
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I would love to see the trains with the new lap bars, but to say that they would be required in the future? Unless I'm mission something, they don't make the ride any safer. So why would they be required to upgrade?
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If head banging, which results in injuries, legal issues, etc continues to be an issue, and an alternative 'vehicle'is available, then manufacturers make the upgrade, which everyone must follow. The SLC's are on their third generation shoulder harnesses. Plus, you have whole groups of folks who will not ride because of the head colliding with said harness. Its a proven ride, and can have its life extended with a whole new group of riders experiencing a pain free ride. Look at the Steel Phantom. It was a bad ass world class speed coaster. However, most riders felt like they just got out of a boxing match in leiu of a coaster ride. The bottom line is that the majority of park visitors do not like to go upside down, and those who do really aren't looking for the added bonus of neck and head jarring. The new SLC trains are supposed to be smooth, with no neck or head issues. That will, by pure word of mouth, increase ridership, reguardless of ROI this ir that. To the Moreys, upgrading a $7 million coaster with $1 million in trains gives the ride more appeal. $1 million is cheaper than replacing the GNE with a new coaster. MiA has the chance to do the same. I am sure once the CF guys see the Moreys on the new trains at IAAPA, they will take a look, even know they were offered the trains last winter to test.
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Very funny Moosh .....I'm just waiting on that Dominator announcement for KD. I think that the headbanging situation with most SLC's is greatly overexagerated,I've had some pretty good rides on ME lately with very minimal headbanging with most of it occuring more near the end of the circuit coming out of the last turn.On the contrary I've heard that some of the B&M's have gotten pretty rough lately with some moderate headbanging,most notably B:DK/B:TR @SFNE,Scream @SFMM & a couple others which I can't remember the names of at the moment. Supes has also become noticably rougher lately as well,granted there's no headbanging but it's not alltogether smooth as silk like it was in it's debut season 7,almost8 years ago.
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As for MiA, think I said in my other post, I don't think they have the money for a major coaster such as this. But the fact that their just moving this one from another park is costing a lot less. At least that's my thought. That was always my viewpoint on Shivering Timbers. You have this small amusement/water park and there's this huge roller coaster that is usually found in a larger park.
Have you ever been to MIA.
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Correct me if Im wrong, but I believe that Verkoma's "new" suspended trains do not swing like the Arrows and are instead are rigid like inverteds. If thats true those trains should never ever defile the great Big Bad Wolf, Ill take the boxy car that can swing over an inverted train.
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I'm sure the ride is going next to Grand Rapids, I think when they said it was going by Rip Cord and Adventure Falls they were just refering to the general area it was going to be placed in since those two rides are right next to Grand Rapids. I believe Cedar Fairs plan was to paint the ride at GL a few years before they moved it so that Michigans Adventure wouldn't be the one paying for it. Does anybody know if there keeping the on-ride videos? .
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Since when can Vekoma order its customers to spend another million dollars with them?
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^^^, I understood that they do swing. Aren't there some in RCT2?
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^Those are different trains. The suspended swinging trains, that are running on the Vampire are totally different from the SLC trains (old or new). They swing freely The "old" SLC trains tend to swing a little bit, hence the shock absorbers and the name "Suspended Looping Coaster". They are patented this way. Alledgedly, the new trains with the new vest restraint are completely rigid. Question: Is Moreys Pier a pay-per-ride park?
If yes, they would be the second ppr to retrofit their Vekoma headbangers (Prater Park in Vienna being the first to put a lapbar train on a Boomerang).
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I would have guessed the boomerang coaster would have gone to MI Adventure. The waterpark is still the big draw there, and I wonder if this ride might be a bit "big" for the target audience. Either way, its still a nice addition.
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I think the Vampire trains are closer in design to those used on Vekoma's small suspended coasters like Reptar.
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^^Morey's uses a pay-per-ride/ticket system (each pier uses the same tickets, or you can purchase a POP wrist band)
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If I was closer I'd say the new trains would make me definitely want to go to MiAdv just to check them out, otherwise, I've ridden a standard SLC, so I'll get there whenever and ride it if at all. I agree it's a great addition, but new trains would make it a must ride for some just to see how it is, and could give that marketability of "the only lap bar inverting suspended coaster" blah blah.
That's probably 1% of MiA's attendance that think that even know what a SLC is. And that's not marketable. At least not the way you put it.
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You're right Tricktrack....take a look at the pics of the new seats being used on the front row of El Condor & you'll notice that it shares similarities with the design for the suspension system used on jubilee odessey (sp?)when it was built back in 2002. Instead of having the seats mounted to a column in the center of the chassis each seat has it's own support column mounted directly behind it.
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I'm still waiting to hear about some of the Geauga Lake flats and their destination. For example, I'd love to know what is happening with their traditional carousel... MiA would, in my thoughts, be a great spot for that to go as well, as that is one major ride lacking from the MiA lineup.
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I never cared that much for Serial Thunder Thriller Hawk. It was never the reason I went to GL. I will say that it is a lot smoother than the SLC Vekoma clone at SFKK. Rob: I'm extremely late for it, but I couldn't help but point out that Thunderhawk -- and for that matter the entirety of the state of Michigan -- is east of the Mississippi River.
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It's been two years since I rode Thunderhawk at GL, but I recall being very surprised at the fast pace and little headbanging...especially after hearing people complain about it. But then again, I don't think Mean Streak is as bad as people make out either. People from western MI drive either east to Sandusky or west to SFGAm to "go upside down" and bigger thrills than they can get at MiA. I, for one, believe Thunderhawk will be well received at MiA.
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