Wow, the Vain Pleader actually got to the right conclusion.  If you don't count the nonsense conspiracy theories, anyway.I'm starting to be swayed that the burden of integrating the Paramount Parks did in fact hasten this, something I wasn't willing to consider at first, but I suspect the long-term outcome may have been the same. This market isn't going to automagically change any time soon.
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Just as you are being swayed by the Paramount deal, I'm being swayed by the "conspiracy theories". I've talked to a bunch of developers lately that are VERY successful about this situation. They said it's not unlikely Cedar Fair bought the park for the valuable land, easily relocatable rides and elimination of direct competition. They can easily infuse some "new" rides into their existing park lineup, make a pretty penny off the land sale and eliminate even a small piece of competition from their flagship park that is seeing stagnant attendance. As far as "conspiracies" go, I've seen theories way more difficult to believe.
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If that were true halltd, then why did they actually wait 3/4 years to pull the plug on it? Why wouldn't they just buy it and then close it right away? I am not sure that things would be different if Six Flags had it still or if it would have closed sooner. Yes Cedar Fair may have bought it for the land and rides but I suspect not since they did try to upright it.
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^ Maybe they kept it open for 3 years to build up the popularity of the waterpark.
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The only worthwhile investment they made in the park since they bought it was on the Sea World side and that's the part they are keeping. They did minimal painting, barely redid a restaurant and added a corn hole toss game on the rides side. To me, that doesn't say "we're trying to revitalize a park that needs to see a boost in attendance or it is going to close."
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I think they need to be more specific about the draw of the whale. It was the draw of Shamu and the Sea World "brand" that brought people to Aurora, Ohio. By and by, aquarium/sea life parks aren't doing gangbuster business outside of Shamu & Friends. And, those parks have had to move into the ride business to keep up with the Joneses. Somewhere the other day I did say that I think the Paramount purchase is what made the decision on Geauga Lake get sped up. If that doesn't happen I think the park might have had a couple more seasons to show improvement.
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halltd, they also added a brand new picnic area and catering service for corporate picnics. If they were planning on selling that land they would have built the picnic and catering service on the water park side of the lake.
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Keeping in mind I haven't read much of or kept up with the Reader's Digest series that is the Geauga Lake closing saga, but... what if their sale with Six Flags stipulated they could not close the park for four years? Or there was just some other prohibitive clause that prevented an immediate closing? But without question, it definitely seems the Paramount acquisition helped a lot of the moons to align on this one...
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Why would Six Flags care if or when they were closing the park? I'm not sure I see the correlation there.
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Hi, Im a dead horse. Would you like to beat me? The bottom line: Not enough people wanted to pay to ride the rides as GL. Period.
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And now, I shall speak on the subject of Cedar Fair's REAL plans for GL: To say that they had some masterful, nefarious plan for closing the park Just Plain Gives 'Em Too Much Credit! They aren't that bright! If they were, the park would still be open and they wouldn't have 'not been' looking for a buyout this summer! The other myth that needs to be permanently smashed is that CF would make any park suddenly profitable, better looking, more marketable and more just because they're the Second Coming of the Almighty Theme Park Management Messiah. Not to say they're bumbling boobs. But alla that? Nuh uh. -CO
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Since we won't ever know GL's individual numbers, that will never be claimed with authority. Your period should be a question mark.
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Im assuming youre referring to my post about attendance, and I dont need to see numbers, I went to the park, and each time I was there I had the place to myself. Pathetic.
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I was there seven times this year, and the crowds varied from non-existent to packed. All in all, I would have to describe it as a mild uptick from last year. It is interesting that some of the people who gave the most cheerful assessments of the park over the season are now among the most stubborn defenders of the chain's decision. Must be some sort of cognitive disconnect going around.
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Well then at least I'm consistent. Unfortunately, and obviously contradictory to many people's opnions, I always felt it was, in a word, lifeless. But I think you illustrated my point. The attendance needed a lot more than a mild uptick. I dont feel a need to "defend" Cedar Fair, I just understand why they did it, think it was a good decision, and think it was stupid to ever get involved with the park in the first place. That said, I think they made the best out of a no-win situation. *** This post was edited by OhioStater 9/25/2007 12:43:00 PM ***
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^You're right Skipper because once it was out of SFI's hands they were free of the responsibility & could care less.Honestly I'm getting sick of hearing about these conspiracy theories & how ACER's want to lobby local government to force CF's hand on the matter. Radical rightwing anitabortion groups have much more political influence then a bunch of roller coaster enthusiasts who are upset over a local park shutting down a portion of it's business.
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^ Dude, give it a rest. No one wanted to hear you babble on and on about your oh-so-perfect SFA not getting a new ride for years. "Waaahhhh, where's my mine train?" For crying out loud, this is big news and people are going to discuss it to death. I'd say far bigger news than SFA not getting that B&M stand-up hyper flume ride you were so sure they going to get. Because YOU are getting sick and tired of hearing it, it should all just come to a sudden halt? No one's forcing you to read about Geauga Lake, just like no one forced me to read your crap about SFA and your recent AstroWorld analogies that have popped up in about 200 different places. Ray P.
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I'm a bit surprised at the uproar in the enthusiast world about this. Pretty much every trip report I've read about GL talked about how empty & lame the place was. Now everyone is upset. We were able to go to the Q&A session at CoasterMania this year, and if there's one thing I gleaned from it, it's that Kinzel & Co. think their decisions out thoroughly. Many decisions that seemed haphazard, silly or just plain stupid to us coaster nerds made a lot of sense after hearing the background analysis behind the decision, much of which the enthusiast world wasn't privy to. I don't doubt that closing GL is a similar situation.
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Radical rightwing anitabortion groups
Who's Anita Bortion, and what does she have to do with Geauga Lake?
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^ She's the one who ripped the rides out of the uterus of Geauga Lake! -Tambo
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You can believe whatever you want, Tim, and you'd still be wrong. Being familiar with Kinzel's ego and thirst for success is reason enough for me to believe this is a failure he sure didn't want on his watch. And don't make me pull out the name dropping card. Spehn going to GL was, in my estimation, a huge loss for CP. He's operationally one of the greatest assets that company has, and most of the VP and GM types around the company would likely agree with me on that. I walked around that park countless times with him, and I was always impressed at his pride in the park and attention to detail. Simply put, you don't put a guy like that in a place you intend to let wither and die.
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Well said about Spehn and their plans for Geauga Lake. If they were planning on just selling the land and moving the rides they have just kept the existing park management in place until they were ready to pull the plug. They did just the opposite, they re-interviewed everyone in place to see if they fit in with the Cedar Fair culture and moved important people to the park.
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Jeff said:
Spehn going to GL was, in my estimation, a huge loss for CP. He's operationally one of the greatest assets that company has, and most of the VP and GM types around the company would likely agree with me on that.
I totally agree. I don't even know the guy that well, but the decline of operations at Cedar Point since he left is all the evidence you need to make that point. He's the kind of guy that just doesn't settle for mediocrity - something that is running rampant at the flagship park these days. Rides are giving hundreds of thousands less rides than they did just a few years ago, operational policies make no sense, food service still sucks, hotels are not worth the price, etc etc. Spehn wasn't in charge of all this, but I notice the rides dept in particular is in the crapper these days and he WAS in charge of that. Maverick is a tremendous ride and everyone I talk to says that. But somehow they come back feeling as if CP isn't the same as it used to be. I don't think the public is blind to the decline going on. I hope Spehn isn't seen as a failure in all this. I'd love to have him in charge of operations at any park that I was running. If Cedar Fair gets something positive out of this, I hope it's that they realize that it's a lot harder to win back customers than it is to keep them. They've done a couple nice things to try to make money more creatively, but I haven't seen enough yet to make me believe they are serious about it. I see lots of cutting in terms of staff, cutting trains on less busy days and making people wait in lines that shouldn't exist, etc. It's all the stuff people complained about for years as Six Flags was going into the toilet. I just wish management would see this and not follow that path.
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I do have to say though, that the rides this past Saturday, a very busy day, were all running at capacity. When they did miss an interval they sure hustled to get caught up again.
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I'm still a little hazy on just why it was that Sea World closed in the first place. And I don't need some smart-ass telling me it was because they weren't making any money! Of course that would be reason enough though... Just not buying it.*** This post was edited by Superstew 9/25/2007 6:44:30 PM ***
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I took my family to Ohio seaworld several times, it was always on our way home from cedar point. I had no desire to go to Geauga lake, I was there for something different then amusement park rides. I think both six flags and cedar fair ruined the property. They might as well sell the land to the goverment for low income housing.
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^^ Sea World changed their business model to include thrill rides when they became Sea World Adventure Parks. In their land contract, they were not allowed to build thrill rides to directly compete with Geauga Lake. Back in the day, that was no problem because they never had any intention of doing anything but sea animals. But, times change. They weren't able to adapt the park to include rides, so they left. edit: I remember reading articles back then that said since Geauga Lake wouldn't let Sea World alter their contract, they would "stick it to them" and leave. It looks like it has finally come full circle and they really weren't able to survive without Sea World.
*** This post was edited by halltd 9/25/2007 8:07:55 PM ***
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SeaWorld built rides where it made sense. They did so in Orlando, in my opinion in response to Islands of Adventure. Even then, they only built two, and it came down to one coaster and a water ride for each park. The Aurora park wasn't zoned for rides. It never was going to be because of the neighbors. But beyond that, building rides wouldn't have helped anyway, because it was too expensive to turn a profit on an animal park in 120 days as time went on. You may ask how they managed to do it for almost 30 years, and that's a valid question. Two issues came into play. The first was declining attendance. I can't explain that one because I thought it was a fine park. The second issue was that the taxes were really killing them. I did some digging around today and I'd love to find out what their total tax bill was last year. Most of the property is in Bainbridge Twp, in the Kenston school district, which is something like 127 mils right now. That's $127 for every thousand dollars of assessed value by the county. I don't know what commercial property is rated for compared to its "real" market value, but even at $100 million, far below what I'm sure they can get for it, that's $12.7 million in property taxes alone. That seems pretty ridiculous to me.
*** This post was edited by Jeff 9/25/2007 8:45:13 PM ***
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One thing I would like to say is that I hope Cedar Fair is very cautious when it comes to selling the land. We've seen how residents near parks react to rides being built. If Cedar Fair thinks they may ever want to add a large thrill ride to the park, the better be very careful what they do with the land.
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Why turn the park into condos? I dont want condos there and that they are been put up where Euclid Beach stood. Are they going to do the same with GL? Lets see here that um condos don't fit there and closing the park was a bad idea. That can cause other businesses can go out too like the walmart or target across from Geauga Lake. That's a bad business decision for Cedar Fair and they should know that other businesses are surrounding Geauga Lake might go out of business. that is bad for that to happen and Big Dipper I heard that Coaster might be scraped now thats something to cry about. that will sadden coaster enthusiasts really bad I might cry too about that. *** This post was edited by Twistercoasterman 9/25/2007 9:02:07 PM ***
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Jeff said SeaWorld built rides where it made sense. They did so in Orlando, in my opinion in response to Islands of Adventure. Even then, they only built two, and it came down to one coaster and a water ride for each park. The Aurora park wasn't zoned for rides. It never was going to be because of the neighbors. But beyond that, building rides wouldn't have helped anyway, because it was too expensive to turn a profit on an animal park in 120 days as time went on. You may ask how they managed to do it for almost 30 years, and that's a valid question. Two issues came into play. The first was declining attendance. I can't explain that one because I thought it was a fine park. The second issue was that the taxes were really killing them.
I have a question Jeff. Have you ever visited Marineland? They are farther north and their season isn't any longer. The only thing they have going for it is the falls and when I was there I mentioned the park to many people I met and they were like "there's an amusement park nearby. I didn't know that"*** This post was edited by raser 9/25/2007 10:21:48 PM ****** This post was edited by raser 9/25/2007 10:23:38 PM ***
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Sea World IMHO was the WHOLE REASON for people from EVERYWHERE to come to GL in the first place, you want rides? CP, KWOOD Well you know. You want Dolphins and Whales you gotta go to FL or California. Even though I believe that it was a buyout of competition, The ultimate and final blow to anything other than local was the closure of the sea world side. SF did not sell this park because it was loosing money, Just like Houston they had creditors hounding them. CF seen this as easy pickens and then threw the Dorney/WOF formula at it. Guess what? Didn't work. Good Bye Geauga, I have no reason to visit a waterpark when I got three two miles from my house.
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All Marineland has is the falls? Are you kidding me? One of the greatest tourist destinations in North America?
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and GL with Sea World wasn't? Thats what everyone is trying to tell you Jeff. True the animals were SF's But the infastructure was there and its the only Full blown marine park other than Marine Land in hundres of miles. GL was different, The ops under SF stunk with one train ops ect but the experience overal was better than either CP or KI for the reasons mentioned, Difference.
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My understanding (or maybe I've read this somewhere) of the addition of rides at the SeaWorld parks was that it was for a certain demographic. The idea was to get the whole family to come out and the parents/older folks and younger ones could go to the shows or look at the animals, while the teens could get on the rides if the shows and/or animals were boring them. Without any rides, the teenagers/tweens might have steered Mom & Dad elsewhere instead.
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GL and SeaWorld were a regional attraction. You can't seriously compare that to Niagara Falls. No one was planning their honeymoon for Aurora, Ohio.
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raser:
...when I was there I mentioned the park to many people I met and they were like "there's an amusement park nearby. I didn't know that
Which is crazy because, if I remember correctly, you can see Marineland's S&S tower from the falls.
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Ehhh... kind of. The wife and I honeymooned at Niagara Falls in early May of 2005. I remember Marineland not being very far from the falls but I don't remember seeing the S&S tower. Unfortunately the park wasn't open yet for the season, but we got to drive around it and see a few of the rides. I'm sure it was difficult for Cedar Fair to decide to close the rides side. I don't understand how people are surprised at this happening. The writing has been on the wall since 2006 when X-Flight and Steel Venom left. It has been proven to us that a full blown amusement park WILL CLOSE if it can't grow with new attractions, can't get the attendance, or both. In 2004 Miracle Strip closed. In 2005 you saw Astroworld close. In 2006 Myrtle Beach and Erieview park closed. With that said I think it's pretty shady that GL's closing wasn't announced prior to the end of the season. That's one significant decision that I think CF really dropped the ball on. I understand the fear of what your employees would do, or heck, what the guests might do on the last day of operation. But in recent years parks were closed with some sort of notification; Six Flags did it, Erieview Park did it, Miracle Strip did it, Myrtle Beach did it, all those parks closed without incident, and yet Cedar Fair didn't even tell anyone. That's going to leave a heck of a lasting impression, mainly to those local to the park and enthusiasts. ~Rob Willi
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Jeff said : GL and SeaWorld were a regional attraction. You can't seriously compare that to Niagara Falls. No one was planning their honeymoon for Aurora, Ohio. No doubt and I wasn't. However people would come from Pitt, Erie, Cincinnati, Wheeling, Even Toledo and Sandusky to GL for a mini vactaion or trip simply because its closer. We drove up to Marineland intending on visiting with two hours left in it's day. We walked up to the gate and deemed the 45 dollar ticket price not worth it for A old arrow and a few dolphins. Also the place looked run down and crappy, Is their a law against mowing in Canada? The parking lot had grass three feet high. Chuck, who should have stayed at Seabreeze or done Marineland in the morning then Seabreeze
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Huh? Yeah, people came from "Pitt, Erie, Cincinnati, Wheeling, Even Toledo and Sandusky," but clearly not enough of them came. Sea World Ohio may have been a much better park than Marineland but they didn't have as Jeff pointed out, one of the nations greatest tourist attractions in their backyard.
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Gonch said:
Which is crazy because, if I remember correctly, you can see Marineland's S&S tower from the falls.
Absolutely... and that's ignoring the park advertises a lot in that area. Hell, a hotel we stayed at in Rochester had Marineland brochures on the counter.
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Eight of three said: Huh? Yeah, people came from "Pitt, Erie, Cincinnati, Wheeling, Even Toledo and Sandusky," but clearly not enough of them came. Sea World Ohio may have been a much better park than Marineland but they didn't have as Jeff pointed out, one of the nations greatest tourist attractions in their backyard. As I was trying to point out, People from Cincinnati, Pitt, Erie STOPPED COMMING ALL TOGETHER thus 1.5 million down to 600,000 decline when Sea World was removed. Chuck, not arguing the destination THE FALLS are one bit.
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I see commercials for Marineland all the time on TV here in the Caribbean. "Everyone looooooooooooooooves Marineland!"
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Chuck said: "Chuck, not arguing the destination THE FALLS are one bit." Before that, Chuck said: "and GL with Sea World wasn't?" ...in response to when Jeff said: "One of the greatest tourist destinations in North America?" about Niagara Falls. You may not be arguing that the Falls are not one of the greatest tourist destinations in North America, but you seemed to imply that GL/Sea World was. At least that's how I interpreted it.
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Jeff said
For Marineland you need to look at their future development plans: a major themed INDOOR attraction. However, with the falling USA dollar and the new passport requirments, I bet they are re-evaluating those plans.
If I remember talking to people from Marineland last year they were complaining about the proposed improvements that are comming up that they have been talking about for 4 years now...
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Vater, SImple. Im not arguing the draw of the falls. IT IS ONE OF THE SEVEN WONDERS, Honeymoon central ect. Im implying Geauga was something a little closer people would visit from a couple hundred miles away when SEA WORLD was part of it. Chuck, Agreeing that most wouldn't honeymoon at the park but at The Falls, Well The falls are the draw. Everything else is just Gravy.
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^^ Jeff did NOT say that.
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It was a sneak attack on Northeast Ohio in the closing of GL. The doom of it all started with the closing of Sea World though. In my classes at school we have talked business and economics and the sad state of the economy in Northeast Ohio is absolutely horrible. Those two parks were centers for travel from people from Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Tennessee, Kentucky and West Virginia. It is unfortunate and it is sad for a "neighborhood" feeling park! I know I am just 16 but I think that this gives people one less reason to come to our state and Cedar Point is fine but it was fun going to GL with my family. I wish that Sea World would have stayed too. My parents talk about how they would go to one park on one day and the other park another day and how fun it was and you felt like you went somewhere on vacation. They didn't have a lot of $ to travel and neither has our family for that matter. I did always feel like I went somewhere when I was there. It is sad.  Thanks for reading.
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